The Dissident Who Retains Preventing

Subscribe right here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

What’s a dissident? In an autocracy, standing towards the rulers may imply harassment, jail, torture, even loss of life. Dissidents get up anyway.

Host Garry Kasparov is joined by Masih Alinejad, whose work for ladies’s rights towards the Islamic Republic of Iran has led to her exile in the US. It has not ended her combat, nor has distance made her protected—she was focused for assassination at her Brooklyn residence. Masih and Garry talk about their joint work in combating autocrats worldwide, and the significance of safeguarding the values of democracy earlier than it’s too late.

The next is a transcript of the episode:

[Music]

Garry Kasparov: What’s a dissident? In an autocracy, the road is brightly drawn. The ruling authority is unjust. The individuals haven’t any reliable voice of their future or that of the nation. Standing towards the rulers may imply harassment, jail, torture, even loss of life. Dissidents get up anyway.

If that’s too lengthy a definition, right here’s one other one: A dissident is Masih Alinejad. She’s my pal and the visitor in as we speak’s episode. Her courageous stand for ladies’s rights towards the Islamic Republic of Iran has led to her exile in the US, but it surely has not ended her combat, nor has distance made her protected. She was focused for assassination at her Brooklyn residence. However the would-be killers have been captured and just lately convicted in a New York Metropolis courtroom. Her story teaches us to worth what now we have and to by no means take our rights—or our security—without any consideration.

From The Atlantic, that is Autocracy in America. I’m Garry Kasparov.

For the reason that Chilly Battle ended—and with it, the specific good and evil contrasts it contained—many individuals fortunate sufficient to have been born in a free nation, particularly America, have begun to neglect how fortunate they’re.

In fact, many Individuals have began fascinated about their freedoms loads today, however not for the explanations I’d’ve hoped. They’re seeing with their very own eyes among the early warning indicators that dissidents in unfree international locations know too nicely. I’ve at all times believed that for those who cease caring about freedom all over the place, you received’t have it at residence for lengthy. The ethical relativism of the submit–Chilly Battle period has come residence to roost.

So it’s time to prepare and time to combat, and there’s nobody who can encourage and educate us do these issues higher than Masih Alinejad.

Hi there, Masih. So good to see you.

Masih Alinejad: At all times good to see you, Garry. You’re my brother-in-arms.

Kasparov: You’re my sister-in-arms. So the place can we begin? There’s a lot I need to speak to you about. Okay. My late pal and ally Boris Nemtsov—former deputy prime minister of Russia, at one level thought-about to be [Boris] Yeltsin’s successor, after we labored within the opposition making an attempt to cease [Vladimir] Putin’s dictatorship—he used to say that within the absence of democratic procedures, while you reside within the authoritarian regime, the one solution to measure the effectiveness of your work is how the regime responds to it. And judging by the response of the Iranian dictatorship, non secular dictatorship to you—assassination makes an attempt, kidnapping try—it appears you’re No. 1 on their hit checklist, enemy No. 1 of Iranian mullahs. So how come the regime that each day, each hour demonstrates contempt for ladies is so afraid of you?

Alinejad: To be trustworthy, it’s a badge of honor. Garry, I used to be on the telephone with you when really the man with the AK-47 got here in entrance of my home in Brooklyn. We have been on a Zoom assembly with our pal Leopoldo López, and it was a really tense assembly, for those who keep in mind. So I didn’t open the door. So principally, you saved my life. I may have been useless. The regime, no matter I do, it made them mad and really offended with me, and so they hate me a lot that they actually wanna do away with me.

Generally I say to myself: Is it worse? Like, first kidnapping plot, after which the man bought arrested with AK-47. I assumed, It’s executed. That’s it. After which two extra males, just a few days after a presidential election right here in the US of America, bought arrested. So, however, however give it some thought.

Kasparov: I’m simply, I’m fascinated about it. However , it’s simply, our listeners ought to perceive, so. Why so severe? Why you? Why these dictators are so fearful of dissidents that don’t have anything however Instagram, Twitter, X, and simply the facility of phrases?

Alinejad: That’s an excellent query, however I believe we must always not downplay the facility of girls in Iran. Sure, in fact. There are three pillars that the Islamic Republic, based mostly on three pillars: loss of life to America, loss of life to Israel. And the third pillar is ladies. So I strongly consider the rationale that they actually hate me and so they need to kill me, it’s as a result of I understand how to mobilize ladies. So I keep in mind the day after I began my marketing campaign towards obligatory veiling, I used to be myself shocked how I bought bombarded by ladies: younger ladies inside Iran sending me movies of themselves strolling unveiled, which is a punishable crime. Garry, it’s like for those who stroll unveiled, you get fined, you get lashes, you get killed. However ladies have been practising their civil disobedience. So it was not nearly a small piece of material. When ladies can say no to those that management their physique, these ladies can say no to dictators. And that scares the regime, as a result of proper after the Islamic Revolution, the Islamic Republic really pressured the entire, , half of the inhabitants to cowl themselves. Why? As a result of compulsive veiling is the principle image of a spiritual dictatorship. It’s their, —we girls are pressured to hold their ideology. If we are saying No, not are we gonna carry your ideology, in fact they hate us.

Kasparov: Okay. Let’s go a bit deeper in historical past. So let’s begin with you in Iran. You had been working in Iran, and also you have been essential of the regime.

Alinejad: I used to be a parliamentary journalist.

Kasparov: You’re the parliamentary journalist.

Alinejad: I bought kicked out from the Iranian parliament simply due to exposing their payslips.

Kasparov: Oh, okay. High quality. So, when did you allow Iran?

Alinejad: In 2009. The presidential election occurred, controversial presidential election. They stole the—

Kasparov: You name it controversial.

Alinejad: It was—really, I name it choice, Garry. We don’t have elections in any authoritarian regimes in any respect.

Kasparov: I do know that.

Alinejad: It was a variety, however on the identical time I had hope. I’ve to admit that. I had hope that this regime will be reformed. So hundreds of thousands of Iranians, they’d hope that we will reform the regime. So we attempt—

Kasparov: By voting?

Alinejad: By voting.

Kasparov: By voting for so-called reformers?

Alinejad: So-called reformers. We tried that; we tried that many instances. It didn’t work, and that’s why, I imply, me and many individuals who believed in reform, Inexperienced Motion, they left Iran.

Kasparov: So there was the election.

Alinejad: They stole the election.

Kasparov: It appeared that the reformer received. After which it was, they name it the Inexperienced Revolution, however the world ignored it. President [Barack] Obama turned a blind eye on it.

Alinejad: Not solely that, President Obama discovered a possibility that, Wow, the regime is weak. So then he may get a deal from the ayatollahs, and guess what? I’d always remember the time when individuals have been chanting Obama, Obama. You both with us or with them. You understand why, Garry? As a result of Obama in Persian means “he’s with us.” Oo means “he”; ba means “with”; ma means “us.”

Kasparov: Wow. I do know. So that you left Iran, as a result of I at all times keep in mind after I left Russia, so, and determined to not come again as a result of I used to be already a part of this ongoing felony investigation about political actions. What occurred with you, 2009? Any particular, , purpose? In fact you have been handled with no less than suspicion by the mullahs and by their henchmen. However anything occurred in 2009 so that you just sensed it’s time to depart?

Alinejad: In 2009, Garry, I didn’t, I didn’t make the choice to depart my nation. I got here right here as a result of I used to be invited by Obama’s administration to do an interview with President Obama. After I got here right here, the Inexperienced Motion occurred, and the administration bought chilly toes. As a result of they informed me if they provide the interview to me—I used to be working for the reformist newspaper, which was, which belonged to one of many presidential challengers—so that they thought that as a result of we’re supporting the Inexperienced Motion, if they provide me the interview, the U.S. will ship the sign to the regime in Iran that the US of America is supporting the Inexperienced Motion. You inform me: What’s unsuitable if a democratic nation helps a pro-democracy motion?

Kasparov: It’s superb. It’s such a straightforward solution to ship a delicate sign with out a direct provide of assist to the motion by simply giving an interview. They usually simply flip you down?

Alinejad: Principally, Obama ruined my life, as a result of I used to be right here, I couldn’t get the interview, and I didn’t know what to do.

Kasparov: And what did come subsequent?

Alinejad: Nothing. I couldn’t return, as a result of the Iranian regime shut down the newspaper that I labored for; they arrested hundreds of harmless protestors. They killed greater than 100 harmless individuals within the Inexperienced Motion. And I used to be telling President Obama: If I get the interview, I’m gonna return. As a result of they’re not gonna contact me, as a result of the U.S. authorities goes to really put strain on them. However I didn’t get the interview. And, I imply, my coronary heart was damaged. As a result of I believe there was nothing unsuitable by sending a sign to the regime by giving an interview to a pro-democracy journalist and saying that, “Sure, we proudly assist the Inexperienced Motion. We proudly assist the harmless individuals of Iran.”

After, uh, I believe eight years, I noticed—six years?—I noticed Hillary Clinton in a celebration, and I sort of grilled her. I stated, I’m right here as a result of Obama’s administration by no means accepted to offer me the interview. Now I misplaced my nation. I’m caught right here in America. And I stated that principally, I don’t need you to assist us or to save lots of Iranians. I need you to no less than cease saving the Islamic Republic. That was my level. And what occurred? Hillary Clinton, I’ve to offer her the credit score. She really went public. After that, she stated that huge remorse, the Obama administration ought to have supported the [movement]. Obama, just lately, after, , the 2022 rebellion—girl, life, freedom—President Obama himself stated huge remorse. However at what price? Lots of people bought killed. After 10 years, President Obama stated Sure, we must always have supported the Inexperienced Motion. It’s, it’s past unhappy that leaders of the free world don’t perceive that they’ve to stay with their precept. As a substitute of simply empty condemnations or empty phrases of solidarity or supporting, they need to put precept into actions.

Kasparov: I’m a bit hesitant asking you this very powerful query, as a result of, , it’s, additionally sure, very near my coronary heart. After I left, I used to be, I simply determined to not come again to Russia to face imminent arrest. So I didn’t assume that it will be for such a protracted interval, and possibly once more, it’s now, it’s indefinite. I’m unsure I ever would be capable to come again. I nonetheless hope that, , I’m younger sufficient, , simply to see the change in Russia. About you. It’s not, it’s not 12 years; it’s 16 years. So when did you allow, or while you determined to not come again, while you realized that, , this return to Iran can be—

Alinejad: A dream.

Kasparov: —simply an on the spot arrest or worse? So what did you are feeling?

Alinejad: Generally I actually really feel depressing, Garry. I’ve to—you, you’re my brother, and I’ve to confess that. I’m an emotional individual.

Kasparov: I do know that. You’re in good firm.

Alinejad: Yeah, and typically I believe that simply because having a distinct opinion—wanting democracy, dignity, freedom—I’ve to pay such enormous value of not hugging my mom.

Kasparov: You continue to have household there?

Alinejad: Yeah. My mother lives in a small village. She doesn’t even know use social media. So, when my brothers, or , my household, after they go there to go to her, that is simply a possibility I can speak to her. However guess what? Now, speaking to me is a criminal offense. The Iranian regime created a legislation below my title. If anybody sends movies to Masih Alinejad, or talks to Masih Alinejad, will likely be charged as much as 10 years in jail. In order that they implicated my mom for the crime of sharing her love with me.

And now my mother can’t speak to me. And now my brother—like, my household, must be cautious. In the event that they speak to me, they need to pay an enormous value. You see, I’ve household. Nevertheless it’s like I don’t have them. Why? As a result of I need freedom, as a result of I need democracy, and that’s my crime. Generally I believe that I received’t be even capable of hug my mom. I neglect their faces, I wanna hug them. I wanna contact my mother’s face, my father’s face. And guess what, Garry? Due to all these traumas, due to all these, it’s not simple to deal with them. So I planted bushes in my Brooklyn backyard to honor my mom, to honor my father. So I named a tree, cherry blossom tree, after my mother’s title in my Brooklyn backyard.

And now I’m not even capable of see these cherry blossom bushes, as a result of I needed to transfer. I imply, in three years, the FBI moved me greater than 21 instances. Dictators first pressured me to depart my mother, and now being away from my cherry-blossom mom. It was an exquisite tree. My father, so, as a result of he, , he disagreed with my concepts, I planted a peach tree, and I put it within the yard backyard. I don’t wanna see you, however be there, as a result of I like you.

Kasparov: You simply stated that your father disagreed with you. So you’ve got your loved ones not on one facet. It’s break up.

Alinejad: Yeah. It’s like Iran. You understand, on the map now we have one nation: Islamic Republic of Iran. However in actuality, we actually have two Irans. It’s like we’re banned from going to stadium. Ladies are banned from dancing. Ladies are banned from singing, Garry. From singing. So men and women are banned from having a combined social gathering. So we’re banned from numerous issues by the ayatollahs. Yeah. So, however Iranians are courageous sufficient to apply their civil disobedience, to create their very own Iran. So I attempt to give voice to the true Iran, making an attempt to point out the remainder of the world that this can be a barbaric regime.

Once you go to my social media, you see the true face of Iranian ladies, courageous individuals of Iran. You see the face of moms whose kids bought killed, however they bravely shared their tales. I always remember the day when the pinnacle of the Revolutionary Courtroom created a legislation saying that anybody despatched movies to Masih can be charged as much as 10 years in jail.

So I shared this video, as a result of I wished to let my individuals know in regards to the threat. Guess what, Garry? I used to be bombarded by movies. This time, from moms whose kids bought killed by the regime strolling on the identical road that their kids bought killed. Holding their image and saying, Hello, Masih. That is the image of my son, and I’m on the street the place my son bought killed. I fairly go to jail, however not be quiet. Be my voice. That is the Iran that I’m happy with. So these ladies are like ladies of suffrage, like, —like ladies, like Rosa Parks of my nation. In order that’s why I take advantage of my social media. To echo their voices, to proceed my combat towards the Islamic Republic. As I informed you, they kicked me out from Iran, however they couldn’t kick me out—like my, my thoughts, my coronary heart, my soul, my ideas are there. And I’m nonetheless combating with them.

Kasparov: We’ll be proper again.

[Midroll]

Kasparov: You talked about Rosa Parks. One of many heroes of human-rights actions. All Individuals who wished to combat for equal rights for his or her compatriots, regardless of the non secular, racial, or ethnic variations. However that’s, I believe the place, , we will lose our viewers right here. And Individuals, as a result of they at all times attempt to see that it’s by means of the identical lens. Sure, sure. It’s heroic. Sure. It’s troublesome. And look what we did. We must always clarify to them that it’s not the identical, as a result of all ranges of energy which are on the opposite facet. We’ve no—no courts can really save us in Russia or in Iran, or in Venezuela. So dealing with the obstacles in our a part of the world could be very completely different that, in fact, dealing with the obstacles within the free world, whether or not it’s 60 years in the past or now, however , this sort of hypocrisy, , I believe it’s simply, it’s—yeah. Yeah.

Alinejad: It breaks my, yeah.

Kasparov: I look, sure, I take a look at, on the smile in your face. Sure, in fact, that. However I believe it’s crucial for individuals to grasp, whereas, , all of us can recognize the actions of Me Too—sure, there are numerous issues that, phrases you’ll be able to, you’ll be able to, proper the wrongs. However this isn’t the identical as as ladies’s state of affairs in Iran, and even worse in Afghanistan. So let’s speak about it. Let’s speak about, —that is very completely different remedy of human rights in the US or European democracies versus the remainder of the world, the place someway we hear even from those that are combating for, , publicly right here for the values of equality—simply the racial equality, gender equality, no matter. However someway they grow to be very shy speaking about Iran, Afghanistan, or different dictatorships. They usually even speak about some sort of, Oh, it’s, simply their tradition. Reply them.

Alinejad: You known as it hypocrisy. Garry—

Kasparov: I’m making an attempt to be diplomatic. I’m the host of the present.

Alinejad: I name it—completely betrayal. Not solely to human rights and girls’s rights, values. But additionally, it’s a betrayal to their very own sisters in Afghanistan, in Iran. Let me simply inform you why I name that the largest enemy of the ladies in Iran and Afghanistan, sadly, are the Western feminists. And I’m telling you why. I’m telling you why.

After I was combating towards obligatory veiling, in America, after I launched my marketing campaign towards obligatory hijab, after I got here to America, I noticed the Ladies’s March going down in America. I used to be so excited when individuals right here have been chanting My physique, my selection. And I used to be marching with them. Oh, Garry, it’s a must to see my video. I used to be, like, so excited, placing a scarf on a stick and chanting My physique, my selection. Individuals have been replying Her physique, her selection. And I assumed, That is the America. I known as my pal in Iran, and I stated, “That is the primary time I’m demonstrating, I’m protesting—nobody killing me, nobody arresting me.” It was surprising for me that like, wanting round, the police—

Kasparov: Police defending you.

Alinejad: —defending me to chant My physique, my selection. I bought arrested by morality police in my nation. I used to be imprisoned by police in my nation. I used to be crushed up by morality police in my nation. After I was pregnant, I bought arrested, and I used to be in jail. So when seeing the police in America, defending me chanting My physique, my selection, I used to be crying out of pleasure.

I attain out to the identical Ladies’s March individuals. And I stated to them, Now it’s time to assist the ladies of Iran, to combat towards the Islamic Republic, the ayatollahs. Iranian ladies say no to pressured hijab. All of them have been like, Shhhh. I used to be being labeled that I trigger Islamophobia. Why? As a result of they at all times say that, Um, that’s your tradition. You understand, cultural relativism grew to become a device: an excuse of their hand to assist the ayatollahs to oppress ladies extra. I’m saying that. Utilizing all these narratives to really ship a sign to Islamic Republic that no matter you do, we don’t care. So what breaks my coronary heart. When Boko Haram, really—

Kasparov: Let’s make clear. Boko Haram—Islamist terrorist group in Nigeria that had a really bloody report of prosecuting Christians within the nation. And naturally, their first goal is women.

Alinejad: Precisely. What occurred? Michelle Obama, and Oprah [Winfrey], Hillary Clinton, numerous Western feminists, they supported a marketing campaign: Deliver Our Women Again. Stunning. The place are they? The place are the Western feminists? Why there isn’t any Ladies’s March for ladies of Afghanistan? The state of affairs of girls in Afghanistan is precisely like The Handmaid’s Story, which is a fiction. Individuals within the west, shopping for popcorn, sitting of their couch, watching The Handmaid’s Story—fiction. Your fiction is our actuality. It’s occurring proper now. The apartheid towards ladies is going on, however when that is in The Handmaid’s Story, it’s bunch of like white ladies, so being denied their rights, being raped, pressured to carry kids, all carrying identical gown code. That is the state of affairs in Iran. That is the state of affairs in Afghanistan.

So for me, after I don’t see ladies marching in college campuses right here, school campus right here. I’m like, That is hypocrisy. And on the subject of having coverage towards terrorism, in the future Obama’s administration comes and goes, after which [Joe] Biden administration comes and goes. [Donald] Trump administration comes and goes. They usually undo all of the coverage of the opposite president. They don’t perceive that on the subject of terrorism, America ought to have just one coverage. Imagine me, the Islamic Republic—they don’t care whether or not Trump is in energy or Biden is in energy. They don’t care about left and proper wing. They hate America. They hate American values, and that’s what is lacking. The American authorities doesn’t perceive that they don’t have one coverage to finish terrorism. That’s why, Garry, I believe Individuals ought to perceive on the subject of finish terrorism, it’s like: Islamic Republic is sort of a most cancers. For those who don’t finish most cancers, most cancers will finish you.

Kasparov: You don’t, you don’t negotiate with most cancers. You chop it off. Sure.

Alinejad: You chop it off.

Kasparov: I agree. That’s what I’ve been saying about Putin. You benefit from the sure safety supplied by American legislation. And people who tried to kill you and to kidnap you, they confronted American legislation, and so they have been convicted. America defended you. Yeah. And America pressured them, , simply to obtain the prize they deserved.

Alinejad: Mm-hmm.

Kasparov: So that you have been on the courtroom, within the courtroom?

Alinejad: Oh sure.

Kasparov: You appeared, you appeared straight within the eyes.

Alinejad: I confronted my would-be assassins. I appeared into their eyes. I’m not saying that it was not scary, Garry. I used to be bombarded by completely different emotions, completely different emotional, wanting into their eyes.

Kasparov: You have been trembling.

Alinejad: I used to be like crying, again door, within the arms of the FBI brokers who have been defending me. However instantly after I stroll into the room, after I noticed there was a feminine decide, I used to be like, That is what we’re combating in—I’m emotional—that is what we’re combating in Iran. Having a feminine decide in America, having the legislation enforcement sitting there, supporting me. I noticed my pals, human-rights activists. I noticed my neighbors, Garry, my neighbors from Brooklyn, and I used to be like, How fortunate I’m. That is what the Iranian individuals need to have. Justice. That is, that is like, that is the great thing about America. And I used to be like—felt the facility. To look into their eyes and testify towards the killers.

Kasparov: Now, having all these experiences, do you assume that America is in any hazard of sliding into the authoritarian course? Do you assume that Individuals take this freedom without any consideration? As a result of you’ve got loads of expertise, , each as an American citizen, as one of many leaders of the worldwide dissident motion. Is America dealing with the true problem of basic freedoms that Individuals loved over generations, for 250 years—they might be someway in jeopardy?

Alinejad: In fact, democracy is fragile. I need Individuals to grasp that while you take freedom without any consideration, democracy without any consideration, while you take like, , every thing without any consideration—give it some thought, that the authoritarian regimes usually are not gonna simply keep there. They’re coming from completely different geography, completely different ideology, from communism to Islamism. However they’ve one factor in widespread: crushing democracy, hating America. And all of the authoritarian regimes, Garry, higher than me: They work collectively. They cooperate collectively. Why? As a result of they know assist one another. They know again one another. However right here in America, Republican and Democrats, on the subject of supporting the nationwide safety of America within the face of terrorism, they’re not collectively. So when they aren’t united, consider me, dictators will get united, and they’ll finish democracy.

Kasparov: Now it’s time to speak about, , our joint efforts to create a worldwide dissident group. And now it’s the World Liberty Congress. And you’re the president, the elected president, by the best way.

Alinejad: As a lady, I can’t even select my gown code in Iran, however I used to be elected!

Kasparov: Precisely. Let’s speak about it, in regards to the idea, as a result of we talked about human-rights abuses in Iran, Afghanistan. Briefly talked about Russia and different locations. So that you talked very passionately in regards to the dictators working collectively. Russia, China, Iran, North Korea. They labored collectively, not simply within the United Nations.

Discuss to our Ukrainian pals. They usually inform you: They’re working collectively, serving to Putin to conduct this felony, genocidal struggle in Ukraine. The free world is, I wouldn’t say disunited, however positively will not be united because it needed to be. So we attempt to carry collectively dissidents who noticed it simply with their very own eyes, who suffered from these energy abuses. Whether or not it’s in Africa, it’s Center East, in Latin America, it’s in Asia, it’s Japanese Europe, Russia, Belarus, central Asia. Sadly, there are too many international locations that simply now reside now below some sort of authoritarian or totalitarian rule. So we created this group, and we need to have a strong message of those mixed forces of people that in any other case, , had little in widespread. However recognizing that it’s time for us to have a dissident worldwide—to do what?

Alinejad: I’m positive you’re not gonna like that, however the one factor that we must always be taught from dictators is unity. Since you stated that: They’re united. So our group is making an attempt to really educate the leaders of democracies that they need to be as united as dictators. And work collectively on the subject of finish authoritarianism—which is, as you stated, growing yearly. And we had our first normal meeting in Lithuania. These are the true dissidents, who survived assassination plots, main actions inside their very own nation in Africa, all around the authoritarian regimes. So we have to get collectively and produce the wall of dictatorship down. In any other case, democracy goes to go in recession eternally. So I wanna invite everybody to really be taught in regards to the World Liberty Congress and our joint efforts—and perceive that that is the time to assist the dissidents who’re warning the remainder of the world that dictators are increasing their ideology all over the place. In democracies as nicely.

Kasparov: Sure. So, in fact I’ve to say Anne Applebaum, who began this idea, Autocracy in America. She talked about it in a really scientific manner. So clearly you’re, you’re providing extra emotional—really firsthand expertise.

Alinejad: Firsthand expertise, not emotional, Garry. Let me inform you one thing. The man who was making an attempt to kill me was from Russia. A Russian mobster, yeah? And the kidnapping plot because the FBI, , foiled it—

Kasparov: Revealed it.

Alinejad: Sure, precisely. Once you learn the indictment, they are saying that they have been making an attempt to take me from Brooklyn to Venezuela. Why Venezuela?

Kasparov: It’s part of the identical community.

Alinejad: Precisely. Sure. So that really exhibits you this community: from Russia, Iran, Venezuela, China, North Korea. They’re not solely supporting one another—like sharing know-how, surveillance inside their very own authoritarian regime to oppress and suppress rebellion. They’re additionally utilizing this for transnational repression past their very own borders, in democratic international locations. In 40 years, greater than 500 non-Iranians have been the goal of the Islamic Republic, both kidnapping or assassination plots. Greater than 500—past their very own borders in Western international locations. That must be an alarm for everybody.

Kasparov: However, we will hardly count on Western democracies, particularly the US now and Donald Trump’s management, to include dissidents’ considerations, human-rights points, into any negotiations. He spoke to Vladimir Putin simply various instances. I by no means heard them speaking about human rights.

Alinejad: So in the event that they don’t care about human rights, I believe nationwide safety is vital for them, no? Nationwide safety is below risk. Severe threats. I’m speaking about actual assassination plots going down on U.S. soil. If anybody can come to America and goal me, subsequent will be anybody who’s now listening to me.

Kasparov: Let’s summarize. Within the period of globalization, democracy can’t survive someplace with out being protected elsewhere. So every thing is interdependent. It’s all related, appropriate? So, what’s our message? The World Liberty Congress introduced collectively a whole lot and a whole lot of dissidents, as a result of we perceive that the world now, it’s now on one of the essential phases of the endless struggle between forces of freedom and tyranny. And this struggle, in fact it has entrance traces, like in Ukraine, as an illustration. Nevertheless it goes throughout the globe. And this struggle additionally has its invisible borders inside the US, inside Europe: so inside democratic international locations. And right here, our expertise, our understanding of the character of this struggle, is invaluable. Individuals ought to hearken to us. And eliminating human rights—or accepting the equality of individuals from each area of the planet, for simply that they’re entitled for a similar rights as Individuals or Canadians or Brits or French or Germans—goes to hurt democratic establishments in these very international locations. Your final phrase?

Alinejad: My final phrase.

Kasparov: Your final phrase as we speak, in fact. As a result of we’ll hear loads from you.

Alinejad: Sure. Some individuals in America are allergic to regime change.

Kasparov: To the phrase of regime change.

Alinejad: To the expression of regime change. I’m solely allergic to dictators, and that’s the way it must be. Don’t give diplomatic titles to terrorists. Let’s name them who they’re. Don’t give diplomatic titles to dictators. They’re dictators. In order that’s my message. Quite simple. Hashtag diplomacy will not be going to save lots of the lives of girls in Iran, in Afghanistan. The lives of these individuals residing on their authoritarian regimes in Africa, in Latin America, Asia, Japanese Europe.

No; we’d like actions. We’d like the true solidarity, and don’t abandon those that are defending democracy, who’re combating for freedom, who’re making an attempt to ensure world safety throughout the globe. I like America. I like Iran. And I’ve been given a second life, by the legislation enforcement. Garry, that is very ironic—a woman who was pressured to shout “Dying to America.” The nation that I want loss of life for, the US of America, gave me a second life. And that’s why I like America, and I wanna dedicate my life to combat for America as nicely: to guard America from terrorists, from authoritarianism. And that’s why I’m stuffed with hope and power.

[Music]

Kasparov: When Masih and I spoke, it was earlier than the US and Israel attacked Iran. So we adopted with Masih: to ask her what she made from the strikes, and what they may imply within the battle towards the Iranian regime and the broader combat towards autocracy. Here’s what she needed to say:

Alinejad: To be trustworthy, I’m in contact with many Iranians, and they’re completely satisfied on the subject of see the tip of their killers, the commanders, the Revolutionary Guard members. In order that made Iranian individuals completely satisfied. However on the identical time, unusual individuals bought killed. And that’s the individuals of Iran paying an enormous value. And what breaks my coronary heart extra—that now individuals are being left alone with a wounded regime, which is making an attempt to get revenge by itself individuals.

So sure, I saved listening to within the west, Let’s finish the struggle. Anti-war activists took to the streets, and I used to be like, It isn’t that troublesome so that you can say that. And when now I see that each one these anti-war activists, , they only completed their job. No extra speaking about one other struggle being waged on Iranian harmless ladies. Individuals dealing with executions proper now. It’s past unhappy.

[Music]

That’s all I can say. That we solely see peace and safety within the area, throughout the globe, if we actually say no to Islamic Republic. For those who ask Iranians, they’ve just one message to you: The actual warmongers are the Islamic Republic officers contained in the nation. And that’s why after we say no to struggle, we actually imply no to the Islamic Republic.

Kasparov: This episode of Autocracy in America was produced by Arlene Arevalo and Natalie Brennan. Our editor is Dave Shaw. Authentic music and blend by Rob Smierciak. Truth-checking by Ena Alvarado. Particular because of Polina Kasparova and Mig Greengard. Claudine Ebeid is the manager producer of Atlantic audio. Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Subsequent time on Autocracy in America:

Kasparov: I’m Garry Kasparov. See you again right here subsequent week.

[Music out]